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Island Three Productions • View topic - Two Weapon Melee Attacks
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Two Weapon Melee Attacks

PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:01 am
by SilverCoin
As of now, the Melee Attack Bonus is halved for two weapon melee attacks. I am of the opinion that this makes Two -weapon melee attacks somewhat underpowered.
The damage of Melee weapon attacks are proportional to the difference between your attack the enemy's defence. Barring situations where you manage to reach the maximum damage cap (Not that rare but we'll just see how the numbers work out first)..

Dmg = k (Attack - Defence)

(I'll be using the average values for 3d6 (10.5) for the calculations, k is a constant representing damage step)

Attack = Attack bonus + 10.5, using average number
Defence = Defence bonus + 10.5
For One weapon
Dmg = k (MA + 10.5 - MD -10.5)= k (MA-MD)
For Two Weapons
Dmg = k (MA + 21 - 2MD -21) = k (MA-2MD)

The Dmg is lower.

For cases where there is only a passive melee def
One weapon:
Dmg = k (MA+10.5-MD)
Two Weapon:
Dmg = k (MA+21-2MD)

The difference in dmg is k(10.5-MD), and 10.5-MD is negative except for chickenwalkers.

I'm not too sure but the numbers don't look too good.
Proposal: Increase multiplier to 3/4 or 2/3.

The formulas would then be (for 3/4)
Dmg = k (MA + 21 - 2MD -21) = k (1.5MA-2MD)
Dmg = k (1.5MA+21-2MD)
This gives a damage difference of k(0.5MA-MD) and k(0.5MA+10.5-2MD), which may at least be situationally positive.

While I do conceed that a two weapon melee attack raises the max damage ceiling using the original formula, in almost all cases, damage would decrease. Combine this with the fact that a single weapon is easier to enhance with MP, and I see a distinct need to improve two weapon melee.

Re: Two Weapon Melee Attacks

PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:08 am
by SilverCoin
This applies mostly to non-impact hammer weapons, since impact hammer has a lower accuracy requirement than almost all other weapons.

Re: Two Weapon Melee Attacks

PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:17 pm
by FM
I'm not saying you're wrong, since the calculations don't make sense to me, but have you taken autohits and criticals into account in your calculation? Two melee attacks give you twice the critical chance. And while average damage is lower, you still gain two chances to hit with damage, which might balance things out for those who prefer a consistent damage output.

Also, certainly the two impact hammer combo is one I favor, if you look at Sledgehammer and Super Arm, given how it gives you four whole attacks.

Re: Two Weapon Melee Attacks

PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:22 pm
by SilverCoin
The difference that makes to my caluculations is about 5% talking into accounts both crits and misses. Auto miss is 1/36, Crit is 1/9. And since you get extra dmg for one weapon crits as well as two weapon crits, not that much difference between the 2, especially since single weapons tend to have more magus points.

I'm thinking of a 2/3 multiplier to all other weapons, since they have more damage steps than hammers,and thus a higher accuracy requirement. 3/4 is too high. the difference between 2/3 and 1/2 is 1/6, so it should be enough to balance, but not overpower.

Re: Two Weapon Melee Attacks

PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:23 am
by Binary
It's not 100% accurate because you're just taking averages for rolls instead of running probability charts for what difference between MA/MD you have to reach with one of the two attacks to hit basically the same number, but as far as I can tell from vague messing around with it ultimately it doesn't look great for...quite a few numbers, really. That said, consider that the damage isn't just straight damage step-based because the base damage isn't exactly between the two. And, for what it's worth, that difference in 5% autohit chance.

Of course, this assume the enemy can defend/counter at somewhere near an equivalent rate, which is distinctly...incorrect if you're a primary meleer attacking a mostly non-meleer (i.e. has token defensive ability) or a complete non-meleer (i.e. screwed). In both of those cases I think TWFing comes out ahead just because statistically you have an excellent chance of getting the equivalent of at least max damage steps and then probably more on top of that.

Re: Two Weapon Melee Attacks

PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:29 am
by SilverCoin
I see. I get what you mean. Should I actually make a probability chart or should I just drop this? I mean, from what I see so far, halving your attack just seems a bit too harsh. I'll ask my group to try 2/3 and play test for a bit.

Re: Two Weapon Melee Attacks

PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:54 pm
by Binary
Playtesting's a good move for sure. I'll fool around with the numbers some more too if I've got time.

That said, even if you equip weapons for TWF you also get the option to not TWF vs. high-defense enemies. So really a TWF meleer can pick the best of both worlds depending on the situation.

Re: Two Weapon Melee Attacks

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:33 am
by Bratwurst
Playtesting is indeed the final word, I think. The potential of two-weapon fighting at the moment seems quite grand, though, considering how few hits it takes to kill off even a heavier APU. It's almost an all-or-nothing combat style. But I need some playing experience under my belt to tell anything for sure, too.

One thing about two-weapon fighting, and Melee Defend, though - and this is rather unpleasantly min-max-ish, but the detail just struck me... could I basically mount 2 Arc Projectors or Impact Hammers, weapons that fit the forearm but have only the Counter defensive maneuver, and mount one Superheated Blade in the hand to gain the Defend function, and still use both forearm melee weapons offensively?

This feels like a potentially overpowering choice, by providing a way to completely slip past the two weapon's inherent weaknesses. But then again there's the weight to consider. Hmm...

Re: Two Weapon Melee Attacks

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:55 pm
by FM
If someone wants to get back to me with revised numbers (preferably with damage output included) or at least a playtest run, that'd be fantastic.

As for Bratwurst's design...well, it's theoretically possible and within the rules to do so, but would look rather silly. You can only TWF with two identical weapons, though.

Re: Two Weapon Melee Attacks

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:13 am
by SilverCoin
@Bratwurst: As FM said, you need to have 2 weapons of the same time to attack or counter attack with both of them. Kinda pointless isn't it? Might as well get a shield. The thing about Melee is that it really makes you vulnerable, so yes, it's the "one of us dies NOW" tactic. I mean. It opens you up to melee attacks (not really a concern), missile attacks (Considerably bigger concern), electrolaser attacks (painful) and tank main cannons (also painful), so its situational at best. I'm not too worried since it's easy for the GM to punish Min-maxing.

@FM: Will get back when we have some playtest data.